|A G-Works R1 Gas Saver adapter can help one avoid paying the "convenience charge" of small canisters.|
|A 100 gram canister of gas often retails for $4.95. That's a nickel per gram.|
|440 gram canisters for sale for $7.72|
Well, you can pay the big canister rate for small canisters. Yes, that's right, you can. You just need a G-Works R1 Gas Saver. The G-Works Gas Saver basically hooks up two canisters. When your 100 or 110 g canister runs out, you refill from a 440 or 450 g canister. Thus, you pay the 440 g rate for the convenient 100 or 100 g size canister.
You can also custom fill canisters to exactly the amount of gas you need for a given trip. Say you need approximately 12 ounces of fuel (about 340 g) for a given trip. Well, gas is only sold in the US in approximately 4, 8, and 16 ounce sizes (roughly 110, 220, and 450 grams respectively). If you want 12 oz of fuel, you have to buy 16 oz and carry an extra quarter pound of dead weight. Yes, you could flare off the gas, but that's kind of a waste.
Or, you could carry one 8 oz (about 230 g) and one 4 oz (about 110 g) canister, but remember a 100 g canister of gas weighs 200 g full and 100 g when empty. In other words, the canister weighs as much as the fuel. So, by carrying two canisters, you're carrying a lot more steel, and you're really not saving much weight by carrying one 4 oz and one 8 oz canister when compared to carrying a single 440 or 450 g canister.
For example, I took some full canisters, and put them on a scale:
|Size||Weight when full (g)||Weight when full (g)|
The difference between carrying 16 oz of fuel vs. 12 is only 33 g (1.2 oz) because of the weight of the canisters. The weights between brands of canisters may vary, but these weights should be illustrative. So, carrying 4 oz less in fuel saves me only about 1 oz in actual weight because of those darned steel canisters.
But what if I custom fill an empty 16 oz canister with 12 oz of fuel? The weight of the canister does not change, and any reduction in fuel equates to an actual one-to-one reduction in weight. If I fill with 4 oz less of fuel (113 g), I carry 4 oz less pack weight. Yes, a bit of fuss to save a quarter pound, but remember that if the average backpacker (who carries something like 80 to 100 items in their backpack) could save just 2 oz on average per item, their pack would weigh on the order of ten pounds less overall. Ounces are worth shaving wherever you can. And if you're already using the G-Works adapter to pay the 440 g rate for 110 g canisters, why not not save a few ounces of pack weight while you're at it?
Refilling canisters could be dangerous, very dangerous. I'm talking about permanent injury, loss of eyesight, disfigurement, and even death.
You will note that I am not a lawyer. I don't work for any company that could get sued here. I'm not some ninny in an office who doesn't give a dang about whether you live or die in the back country so long as his company can't be sued. I am just a fellow lover of the wilderness. Any warning I give you is realistic and sober. My warnings are not overblown silliness as are so many of today's legal warnings. I'm giving it to you straight. If you ignore me, you're a dumb ass, and I have little sympathy for you. Don't come crying to me if you didn't heed my warnings.
In my original post on refilling gas canisters, I listed a series of precautions. Read my original post on refilling gas canisters if you are thinking about refilling canisters of your own. Please do your homework before you try something like this. If you do try this, there's a certain danger to it, no matter what. You're working with highly flammable, explosive gasses. You've been warned.
Transfer from Like to Like
Not all canisters are created equal. Some are stronger than others. When you take canister gas from one canister and transfer it into another, you want to make sure that the receiving canister can handle the resultant pressure. The ideal way to do this is to "stay within the brand." By "within the brand," I mean transferring Jetboil to Jetboil, Primus to Primus, etc. If you transfer gas from a larger canister to a smaller canister of the same brand, you already know that the smaller canister can handle the pressure from that blend of gas. Note: Some companies, Primus in particular, have different blends: Summer blend, winter blend, etc. For companies with different blends, use a donor canister of the same blend as the receiving canister originally held.
If you can't find a donor canister of the same brand as your receiving canister, you can check on the company's website what blend (percentages of propane, isobutane, and n-butane) the canisters held to insure compatibility, but it's best to stay within the brand if you can. Note that some companies do not publish their blend's percentages and that percentages can change over time.
Basically though, if you transfer from like to like, you minimize the risk that the receiving canister can't handle the pressure.
Custom filling/refilling is actually fairly simple. I'll list the instructions below.
Before you start, weigh the empty canister. The weight of the canister + the amount of gas the canister originally contained is the maximum safe total weight of the canister. For example, if your receiving canister weighs 116 g when empty and originally held 220 g of fuel, then your maximum safe weight is 336 g (116 + 220 = 336). The amount of fuel your empty canister originally held should be printed on the label of the canister. If you can't read the label, get a different canister. Only use canisters in good condition when refilling.
|My receiving canister weighs 116 g when empty.|
1. Place the donor canister into a pan or pot of warm water. I said warm water, not hot water. Do not immerse a canister into hot water. Hot water could cause the internal pressure of the canister to exceed the rating of the canister which could cause the canister to burst. Do not put the canister in the pan while the pan is on a stove. What if you left the stove on for a minute and got distracted? Take the pot off the stove, and then put the canister into the warm (not hot!) water.
2. Prepare an ice bath in a container that can hold the recipient canister and some water with ice. You don't want the level of the water to exceed the height of the canister. Keep the connector and Lindal valve area of the canister dry.
3. Close the valve on the G-Works Gas Saver adapter.
4. Screw on the empty receiving canister to the Gas Saver.
5. Take the donor canister out of the warm water, dry it off, and screw the donor on to the other connector on the Gas Saver.
6. Place the receiving canister into the ice bath taking care to keep water out of the connector and Lindal valve area.
|A G-Works Gas Saver properly hooked up with two canisters.|
The donor canister is on top. The receiving canister is on the bottom, in the ice bath.
Take care to keep water out of the connector and Lindal valve area of the receiving canister.
When you open the valve on the Gas Saver, you should hear gas flowing from the full donor canister into the empty receiving canister.
8. After you've let it run for a minute or so, close the valve, take the receiving canister off the G-Works adapter, and weigh the receiving canister. While you're weighing the receiving canister, put the donor canister back into the pan of warm (not hot!) water. Repeat steps 6, 7, and 8 until the receiving canister is full. Do not exceed the maximum safe fill weight of the canister.
|Success! My canister which weighed only 116 g when empty is now clearly full of gas,|
BUT my maximum safe fill weight is 336 g. I need to vent or burn off 10 g.
That's really all there is to it. With the above described techniques and the G-Works Gas Saver, you can refill or custom fill smaller, lighter, more convenient canisters using larger, cheaper (per gram) canisters.
There are actually several versions of this adapter, all from Peakway.
1) The old version of the basic adapter – 28 g (1.0 oz)
2) The new version of the basic adapter – 36 g (1.3 oz)
3) The "fancy" version with what appears to be a pressure relief valve. I don't have this version and can't really comment on it.
I'm not sure why they switched from the old version of the basic adapter to the new version. I can see what has changed, but I don't know the thinking behind the changes. Perhaps it was just to reduce production costs; I don't know.
Be safe and read all the cautions, please. This is good stuff, but you do need to be careful.
Take care and happy stoving,
Appendix I – Custom Fuel Blends – DANGER
Danger. We now depart from anything that might be considered remotely safe. You're completely on your own here if you do this. I'm not recommending this to you; I'm just saying it's physically possible. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. I have not done this. It's just too danged dangerous. Try it at your own risk. And make sure your Life Insurance is all paid up, if you get my drift. See photos of canister explosions, below.
What am I talking about? Well, remember my recent post on the other G-Works adapter, the G-Works Propane adapter? With that propane adapter and the G-Works gas saver adapter combined, you could add propane to a backpacking canister.
Never fill a backpacking gas canister with 100% propane.
WARNINGS UPDATE, 8 April 2017: David, a chemical engineer, has left a series of remarks down in the comments section, below. I suggest that you read them in detail if you're thinking of adding extra propane to a backpacking type canister. Personally, I don't think you should try to add propane, but if you're going to try it, make sure you read, line by line, David's comments, below.
If you do add additional propane to your backpacking canisters, add the propane last. Why? Well, if you add propane to an empty canister, then, at least for a while, you've got 100% propane in there. That could be bad, very bad. Those little lightweight (comparatively) backpacking canisters cannot handle the high pressure of 100% propane. DON'T DO IT. I'm not sure you should add propane to a backpacking canister at all, but if you do, add the propane last, after the canister has a factory blended fuel mix in it.
Never fill a backpacking gas canister with 100% propane.
|A stove and pot destroyed by a canister filled with 100% propane.|
Note how the canister has burst.
NEVER fill a backpacking type canister with 100% propane.
Never fill a backpacking gas canister with 100% propane.
|A stove and pot destroyed by a canister explosion.|
NEVER fill a backpacking type canister with 100% propane.
Jim: Good write-up of refilling small containers from large. Using identical or similar blends of butane/propane.ReplyDelete
I'd add a lot more cautions about refilling with any straight propane in order to increase the vapor pressure of the blend.
- whatever you do to increase vapor pressure at, say, 30F is going to increase vapor pressure at 100F and 120F, which can easily be reached within a windscreen, even on a cold day. Also, during transport in a car, it can get very hot in the sun, could be thoughtlessly placed by a heater outlet, or on the floor above where the exhaust pipe runs. I know, I know, it's so tempting to add another 10% propane but doing so cuts into that safety margin.
- there's a transient issue as you add 100% propane, wether you initially partially refilled with a 80/20 mix (from a backpacking canister) or from a straight butane (from a horizontal canister). If you add vapor propane, you IMMEDIATELY bring the receiving canister to the donor canister's pressure, and it takes a while for the vapor above to go into solution with the butane-rich liquid below. Even if you add liquid propane through a refilling valve, some of it will immediately flash to vapor (because the receiving canister is below propane's vapor pressure) and, again, you are at propane's vapor pressure, not the vapor pressure of the final blend. Not until you've shaken it around and gotten the vapor in equilibrium with the liquid blend. So, in my mind, you must not add 100% propane if the propane is above the pressure limits of the receiving canister. Looking at blends and their vapor pressures at 50C/122F (DOT criteria), donor propane can't be above 70F/21C. i.e. you can't use warm donor propane.
- even if you do all the above, you could still inadvertently add too much propane. Let's say you aiming for 70% butane / 30% propane, but got to 40% propane. Now what? It's not just extra mass you can burn or vent off. It's the wrong blend and only burning/venting off 50% or so is going to change the blend much. So you'd have an over-rich canister with a lower max temp rating and while that might be fine for storage and transport during my Alaskan winter, I'm still concerned about the reduced safety margin during use (reflected IR within a windscreen or, hey! have you EVER spilled a pot of pasta? What if that happens UNTO the canister?!?)
- a way to avoid that transient risk and to provide some margin from getting the mixture wrong, would be to use a green, steel Coleman propane bottle as a transfer vessel. Mix into it (plenty strong enough) and, if you got the mixture right, then fill the backpacking canisters. You'll have to chill it when adding butane blend and super-chill it when adding n-butane, but a chest freezer set on its lowest setting can do that.
I totally understand the temptation to "improve" the fuel blends, I go winter camping / ski-packing in a place with serious winters, it's rarely over 70F, never over 80F in my summer, and I'm a pretty good chemist, chemical engineer and plumber. And I won't do it.
What I will do is use Coleman green cylinders of 100% propane in the winter if I'm sledding in (therefore less sensitive to packed weight). Or use a copper or aluminum "Moulder Strip" to provide thermal feedback to 80/20 factory blends to use them down to -15F and lower.
Thank you very much for your remarks. This without a doubt is the most informative comment I have received here at A.I.S.
To my chagrin, I hadn't even though about the transient pressures during the filling, only the final pressures. Of course there's going to be transient pressure, particularly if one, God forbid, transfers the 100% propane in gaseous form.
I have made my warnings stronger in the Appendix; I have increased the number of warnings, and I have added verbiage that refers the reader to your remarks. Hopefully this is enough.
I could of course never have created the appendix, but I figured that if the idea occurred to me then it could occur to others. I felt it better to write down warnings than to not mention it at all and then have someone blow themselves up simply because they didn't know what they were getting themselves into.
As for me, I will NEVER add propane to a mix. It's just too dangerous.
Thanks so much for the info. A couple years ago (in the original canister refill post) I had asked about this exact thing and wondered if I'd ever get a response. I theorized that you could take straight butane and straight propane (with the right adapters and the G-Works gas saver) both or which are cheap and make custom blends. I think based on your warnings and David's very insightful info. it's just a bad idea all around. Especially just to save a couple bucks. Thanks for all your useful info. on here!ReplyDelete
Sorry I missed your original post.
Yeah, I have studiously avoided working with propane. It's just too easy to screw up. Butane is relatively safe. It's pressure is very low compared to propane.
When I go on Ebay I am seeing different versions of the G works gas saver.ReplyDelete
Now there is the gas saver plus. Could you comment on the differences.
I have only used the adapter featured in this review, however, my understanding is that the "plus" version is roughly the same as the adapter in this review except that the plus version includes some type of pressure relief valve to prevent excess pressure.
I do my warming/cooling a bit differently.ReplyDelete
I leave the donor at room temperature (no warm / hot water) and I put my receiving canister in the house freezer if it has some fuel left in it. I put it in the colder chest freezer if it is totally empty.
I then transfer from room temperature canister to cold canister. I a similar delta T, so a similar delta Pressure but all at lower pressures, no water wetness, and no chance of overheating anything. Typically the transfer takes 20-30 seconds.
If I don't get all the transfer I want, I toss the receiving canister back in the freeze and repeat >20 minutes later.
Second point: Never make or break a connection between a canister ABOVE a GasSaver valve BELOW. Just as you make/break the connection, they'll be a little squirt of LIQUID butane which is cold (more startling) and represents more mass of butane.
ALWAYS have the GasSaver ABOVE the canister when you make or break a connection (this is also true of connecting/disconnecting a stove to a canister). Then, if you get that little squirt escaping, it will be all vapor, less cold, and less mass lost.
Ah, now that's interesting and potentially safer. Question if I may: How cold is your freezer? I'm guessing that so long as there is a pretty good delta T that it doesn't have to be sub-zero or something. Sub-zero might actually affect the operation of the Lindal valve potentially increasing the risk.Delete
Good tip on the liquid vs. vapor at the time of disconnect. I hadn't really thought about it consciously, but that is in fact what I've been doing. I'm not sure if that's luck or intuition, but either way, I'll be doing it deliberately from now on.
I very much appreciate your taking the time to write comments,
forgive me if I missed this in the text, but can one use this method to fill canisters from other partially used canisters of similar size?ReplyDelete
How's the Snow Water Equivalent doing? :)
In answer to your question, yes, that is precisely what one could do with this adapter. If you've got, say, three canisters laying about 1/3 full, you could combine them to get one full canister.
Or, and I think this is easier, you could just buy one big 440 g (sometimes 450 depending on the brand) canister and top them all off and have three full canisters. I personally like to fill a bunch of canisters at once. There's a little bit of a set up with the ice water bath and all that, so while I've got everything set up, I just fill four of the 110 g sized canisters, for example, from one 450 g canister.
Now, and I hope I don't sound patronizing here, but please do read the cautions carefully. If you blow your self up trying this, Laura M. (among others) will hunt me down and personally wring my neck. I'm rather fond of my neck as it is, so do be careful.
Here in Philippines, butane canisters are being refilled with LPG using this device https://goo.gl/photos/8QFXjBW9SfUphmh46 connected to LPG tank. I had seen it first hand. This is for economic reasons, because LPG-refilled canisters are cheaper compare to buying a new butane canister. What are your thoughts? Is this dangerous? I've also seen the canister being pressed with ice while the canister is being refilled.. What is that for?
Just google working pressures propane vaporizes at a much higher psi then butane.Delete
So what all the other posts are in regards to canister working pressure rating.
Just compair a green propane canister (heavy steel) vs a butane canister (light thin metal)
And you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand the difference. I'm sure you might squeeze propane into a butane canister. But it's a ticking time bomb depending on the canisters temperature.
I refill noth major styles of canister with lpg without a problem.Delete
You go on about pressure.one does not need to refill to max pressure.
Refilling should always be liquid,not vapour
Just wanted to say great info, I have been refilling my canisters with cheap butane from Korean grocery store.ReplyDelete
They come in the 227g cans and when on sale can be 1-1.5 for 227gas.
I have yet to complete a boil time review of this butane vs name brand msr etc gas.
Jim, a way to (more) safely create a winter mix just dawned on me... Mix and store the gases in a 1lb propane bottle; get 30 percent propane in the bottle then add the remainder in butane. seems it would solve many of the safety concerns with creating a winter mix. Of course one would want to mark the mix bottle accordingly. Fill your backpacking canisters from the winter mix former propane bottle. Even better would be a 5lb propane bottle of mix which could last a long time (but would be a pain to initially fill with Asian butane) Thoughts?ReplyDelete
Well, an update. CAUTION, DO NOT DO THIS. I successfully mixed 30/70 propane/n-butane in an empty coleman 1-lb cylinder. Lots of careful measurements. Also, my first attempt failed as I believe the kovea propane adapter is somehow "1-way" and wouldn't allow gas to enter the propane cylinder. I needed a second anyway to add propane, and one of the cheap lpg adapters on amazon fitted to the donor "winter mix" coleman cylinder did the trick. I used a lindal fitting hose combined with the g-works gas saver which allows you to weigh the gas added in real time - a real time saver to not have to disconnect as often to weigh. In this case, I added butane first because I wasn't sure if the higher vapor pressure of propane in the tank would prevent adding butane. Will try it next time. Now I have 450g of 30/70 in a sturdy propane tank to top off my backpacking canisters.Delete
I should add that I spent enough on fittings to purchase a bunch of regular canisters so this may not be for most people. However, I like being able to fill at home and I punch holes in the empty butane cans and put them in the recycling. I can fill a 450 (actually 480) g coleman green cylinder for about 2 bucks.Delete
why not use straight propane in stead of a mix in the green canReplyDelete
The green can is too heavy for backpacking. I now have two green canisters on hand with 70/30 mix to fill my small canisters. I also refill the all-propane green cans themselves from a BBQ tank for $1.ReplyDelete
Also you can add propane first, no problem. But the Kovea adapter is 1-way, you need a cheapo adapter.ReplyDelete
I could double the freezer tip, Jim. Been refilling canisters for over 2 years now. No water baths, just a freezer and a scale. I consider 2-3g overfill be within tolerance but 7-10g should be burn out. Also, do you have any statistics on canister weight from different manufacturers? Seems like Jetboil 100g own weight is around 110g whereas Snow peak is 98g. Kovea 220g canisters have around 131-135g and the big 450g ones are 213-215 empty making them around 666g full (easy to remember, lol).ReplyDelete
Well, I do agree on your "don't fill with propane" warning in general. The EN417 gives us a pressure limit of 13.2 bar, everyone smart enough can do their own math and conclusions, I won't encourage anyone here.
But take a look at the picture you've provided. Pretend you had a canister full of propane connected to a remote canister stove with a pot on it and a windscreen around the pot and stove (or maybe without a windscreen). Take a pick - what would the damage look like? And why does it look like an elephant stood on it?
My guess it's not propane being the main reason here. More likely someone thought it would be smart to put a canister on top of a pot or even in the water in it. You can pretty much do the math to sum it up. Explosion and the pressure pushed the pot to the ground smashing it together with the stove. If the canister was not on top but nearby, the damage would be from a side and parts would be around, not squeezed from above. Just my $0.02.
O.K. so I've digged in this one here's the link: https://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.utsidan.se%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D505210ReplyDelete
I'll quote (translated):
"The expensive original gas works barely at this height and cools so the user feels forced to try the refilled gas containers to get warm food.
To get a little bit better in the kitchen (Primus OmniFuel with Eta-pot), the user puts the gas tank on the lid to gently warm it up (quite alright). However, after just a few seconds, the gas container explodes and literally pushes the lid and the pan completely over the kitchen."
I can assure you that if you get a Kovea, MSR or Primus gas tank and put it on lid, you'll eventually end up with a similar bang. Yes, filling it with a high propane (it's not 100% propane anyway) mix will make this faster but nonetheless.
Thanks for the detailed article! Just had a question regarding refilling canisters. I would like to refill some of partially full isopro cans (80/20) and was wondering if the ratio stay the same? Or would the refilled can have a higher percentage of propane? If I can keep the same ratio, this could make winter trips a whole lot easier for me!ReplyDelete
Based on these observations mentioned:ReplyDelete
* It is important to never have too much propane in the mix, as the pressure could become too great for the canister
* When burning off a butane/propane mix, propane is used up more quickly, i.e. it leaves the canister at a faster rate than the butane
Doesn't that mean, even transferring from one canister to another of identical brand/mix, that it is very easy to end up with too much propane in the canister you are transferring to? I.e. more propane than butane could be leaving the donor canister?
Does this suggest sensible temperatures must be used for the donor and receiver canister? E.g. if the donor had been in a cold room, and the receiver had been put in the freezer, wouldn't the receiver be getting a lot of propane and not much butane?
As you are transferring liquid out of the donor can into the receiving can - not the vapor - the mix should stay the same in both.Delete
I'd love it if anyone feels they can tackle the above question. Until it's answered I don't feel safe refilling with anything other than 100% butane.ReplyDelete
I'll re-phrase the question to hopefully make my concerns more clear:
It seems generally accepted that, when a commercial mix of butane and propane is used, especially at low temperatures, that the propane is used up more rapidly than the butane. Often one is left with a canister containing mainly butane which no longer works well in low temperatures. Is this right so far?
If so, it seems to me that we should expect, when transferring a butane/propane mix from a canister, that more propane than butane will be leaving it. So the receiving canister will end up with a higher ratio of propane.
Just checked back here now, months later!Delete
Your explanation makes a lot of sense, thank you.
Has anyone tried their new R2 model?
how did that explode when the gas was off to the side?ReplyDelete