QuietStove.com

Showing posts sorted by relevance for query pressure regulator. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query pressure regulator. Sort by date Show all posts

Saturday, December 31, 2016

Gas Stoves in Cold Weather – Regulator Valves and Inverted Canisters

There has been a lot of talk about canister gas and cold weather.  Let's see if we can separate some fact from fiction and make sense of things.

In this article, I'd like to discuss what regulator valves and inverted canisters can do for the cold weather backcountry traveller.  But first some background.

If one goes high enough, it can be cold any time of the year.
Who cares about Cold Weather?
You do.  Well, if you intend to cook with canister gas, you do.  Why?  Well, the colder your canister gets, the less pressure it has.  On a hot day, the gas will come blowing out of your canister with great force.  On a cold day, you'll barely hear a hiss of escaping gas.  Without a decent flow of gas, you can't get a proper flame, and, on a really cold day, you simply can't cook.

Particularly for mountaineers, the only way to get water is to melt snow.  With no canister pressure, if you need to melt snow, you can't.  No melting snow = no water = dehydration, and that's bad because dehydration can hasten hypothermia.  Hypothermia is extremely serious and can be fatal.

But even if you're not a high elevation mountaineer, having to eat an uncooked backpacking dinner is pretty unpleasant and forgoing a hot beverage on a cold morning nearly equally so.

Coping with Cold Weather
When using canister gas as a fuel, there are two strategies for dealing with cold weather:
  1. Warming the canister
  2. Technology
With respect to warming the canister, really, it doesn't matter what the air temperature is provided that you can keep the canister warm.  But can you realistically keep that canister warm when it's really cold out?  

Notice the frost on the lower part of the canister.
The temperature was above freezing at the time this photo was taken.
Canisters cool from within as you use them.
There are two issues here:
  1. Canisters cool from within as you use them.  (This is why canister cozies are of limited value.)
  2. On a seriously cold day, that little metal canister can get very cold very quickly just from being out in the environment.  
Here now is where technology comes in.  Technology can give us an edge.  Technology can make it so we are a bit less dependent on temperature.

While technology can help us, there's no substitute for the basics.  What are the basics?  
  • Choose good gas.  
  • Start warm
  • Stay warm
We then use technology in conjunction with (NOT in lieu of) the basics.  

With respect to the basics of cold weather gas stove use, I here refer you the article I re-wrote in 2014:  Gas Stoves:  How Cold Can I Go?

Wouldn't a nice, hot beverage be just the thing on a morning like this?
Uh, you did choose the right stove technology before your trip, didn't you?
Technology, Canister Gas, and Cold Weather
What kinds of stove technology can help us use our gas stove in cold weather?  There are two approaches:
  1. Regulator valves (as opposed to the more typical needle valves)
  2. Inverted canister operation
Approach 1.  Regulator Valves
What is a regulator valve, and how can it help?  There are several layers here, so bear with me.  It should make sense in the end.

First, a regulator valve has a pressure regulator built into it.  This pressure regulator can insure that no more than a certain flow of gas is fed to the burner at a time.

Uh, Jim, that's great, but I thought you said the problem was not enough gas.  Now, you're talking about a device that prevents too much gas.

Well, yes, and here's the issue:  A stove has to be able to operate safely in hot weather as well as cold.  If the stove designer "opens up" a stove too much in terms of gas flow, then there could be a disaster in the offing.

Here's what I mean:  It's a hot day.  Your canister pressure is at an all time high.  You open up your valve all the way without really thinking about it.  The gas rushes through with such force that the flame lifts off the burner and is pushed out and away from where the gas is coming from.  If pushed far enough, the flame will go out even though there was no interruption to the flow of gas.

Now, let's think about this.  We've got a red hot stove, and the flame is out.  We've got volumes of highly flammable petroleum gas rushing out of the tank.  Say, do you think that having a highly flammable, potentially explosive gas rushing toward red hot metal could be a problem?  This could go bad very quickly.  I think you get my drift here.

If a stove designer opens up a stove too much, he or she risks putting someone into the burn ward of the hospital unless... unless there's a pressure regulator present of course.  Now, with a pressure regulator, the stove designer can "open up" the flow all he or she likes without worrying about exceeding a maximum safe amount.  If the canister pressure gets too high, the regulator steps in and inhibits the pressure.  In cold weather, our "opened up" stove lets plenty of gas through, and we can cook even when the canister pressure is fairly low.

Take a look at the photo below.  On the left is the jet of a regulator valved stove, a Soto WindMaster
(perhaps the highest quality upright canister stove on the market today).  On the right is the jet of a non-regulator valved stove from Primus.  You can see even with the naked eye that the aperture of the jet on the left is quite a bit larger.  Measurements reveal that the regulator valved stove has a jet size of 0.4 mm.  The non-regulator valved stove has a jet size of 0.23 mm.  (It's a bit confusing because the jet on the right is stamped "32" which may be a part number, but the size is 0.23 mm.)

If we calculate the cross sectional area of each jet, we find that the regulated jet's area is more than triple that of the non-regulated jet.  You can get a lot more gas through that larger opening.
A regulator valved stove, left (a Soto WindMaster).  A non-regulator valved stove on the right.
The regulator valved stove has a jet size of 0.4 mm.  The non-regulator valved stove has a jet size of 0.23 mm
A non regulator valved stove can't be opened up like this; it just isn't safe.  The designer has to build a non regulated stove such that it is safe at maximum canister pressure; there is no inhibiting regulator.  He or she has to "choke" the stove, and cannot allow it to be opened up.  When cold weather comes, a non-regulator valved stove doesn't have the capability to let enough gas through, and performance falls off quickly.

A regulator valved stove can be built such that the stove can operate at near 100% flame when there is, say, only 15% of maximum pressure available.  On the other hand, a non-regulator valved stove operated at 15% of maximum pressure will have a flame that is about 15% of maximum.  Being able to have a 100% flame at, say, 15% pressure is the true advantage of a regulator valved stove in cold weather.  Note that I'm using "15%" here.  This number is meant to be illustrative more than it is meant to be exact.  Each stove's design will be different.

Ah, but what happens when pressure falls below that 15% mark? In that case, a regulator valved stove quickly loses performance.  At truly low canister pressures, there is no real advantage to a regulator valved stove, and, no, I don't care what any stove company may tell you to the contrary.  Technology only goes so far, and at a certain point, it can do no more.  This is why I say one should use technology in conjunction with – not in lieu of – the basics of good cold weather gas stove operation.  See links below for more information on the basics of good cold weather gas stove operation.

Don't believe me?  Well, how about a demonstration?  Below is a video of not one but two regulator valved stoves.  Here are the test conditions and relevant background information:
  • The canisters contain 100% "plain" butane (not isobutane) with no propane.
  • The canister temperature is near freezing, i.e. 32 Fahrenheit (0 Celsius).  
  • Butane vaporizes at 31 Fahrenheit (-0.5 Celsius).  
  • The canisters will cool from within as they are used.
  • A canister needs to be about 20 Fahrenheit degrees (10 Celsius degrees) above the vaporization point of the fuel it contains in order to have good pressure. 
In other words, I'm setting up conditions where the canisters will have very low pressure in them.  I think you'll see that neither stove does very well in the video.  One stove does marginally better than the other, but neither stove operates at anything like a normal flame.  Please watch:

I think you can see that a regulator valved stove can only take one so far.  Technology must be used in conjunction with good cold weather gas stove practices.

Hopefully you now understand that a regulator valved stove, if is designed properly, can offer a distinct performance advantage in cold weather because it can be "opened up" whereas a non-regulator valved stove must be restricted in order to operate safely in all temperatures.

Approach 2.  Inverted Canisters
I have been studiously avoiding going into much of the science behind all this.  I don't want to lose people.  Here, though, I have to talk just a little bit about the science or this will make no sense at all.

But fear not.  I am (I hope) a reasonably good communicator of things technical.  If you can't follow me, then post questions in the comments, and let's work together on this.

Why do canisters cool from within?
Recall that I said that canisters cool from within.  I even posted above a photo of a canister with frost on it – frost despite the fact that the ambient temperature was above freezing.

Why do canisters cool from within?  Well, this due to the contents changing state from a liquid to a vapor.  Shake a half full canister some time.  That sloshing sound you hear?  That's liquid in there.  Yes, I know that they're called "gas" canisters, but that gas in there is under so much pressure that it turns into a liquid.

When you open the valve on your stove, that pressure is released, and the liquid inside your canister starts turning back into a vapor.  There's just one thing.  A certain amount of heat is required, the heat of vaporization ("HVap" for those of you who like such things).  For example, let's say you want to vaporize water.  Typically, one would put a pot on the stove and apply heat.  The water heats up, begins to boil, and turns into steam.  Steam is a vapor.  Just as the water you boil in your kitchen requires heat in order for it to turn into a vapor, so also the liquid in your canister requires heat in order to vaporize.  Where does this heat come from?  The surroundings.  In the case of your stove, that heat is taken from the canister and fuel.  As one part of the fuel vaporizes, the remainder of the fuel (and the canister itself) gets cold.

This is the same principle by which an air conditioner, refrigerator, or freezer works.  In a refrigerator, freon (typically) is compressed into a liquid and then allowed to expand back into a vapor.  The heat required to turn the freon into a vapor comes from the surroundings, and the air in a refrigerator is thus chilled.  Think of your canister as its own mini refrigerator/freezer. The principle is the same.

OK, so why this science background?  Well the point is this:  In order for a gas stove to operate, there has to be enough heat to vaporize the fuel.  Gas stoves run on, you guessed it, gas (i.e. a vapor).  You've got to have gas, not a liquid, to run a gas stove.  In order to have gas, you have to transform the liquid fuel in the canister into a vapor, and for that, you have to have a certain amount of heat.  Where that heat comes from matters.

In normal operation, with the canister right side up, gas is drawn off the top.  The heat required to turn the liquid into gas comes from the surrounding canister and fuel.  If however you turn the canister upside down, then you are drawing liquid off the bottom.  In drawing liquid, nothing is vaporizing in the canister.  The liquid can then be fed to the burner.  The burner.  Get it?  A burner is what?  A burner is hot.  Really freaking hot.  In fact, there's all the heat we'll ever need at the burner to convert that liquid we've drawn off the bottom of the canister into a vapor so we can burn it.  There's just one catch.  Your stove MUST be designed to be able to handle this.  The fuel has to significantly heated before  it hits the actual flame in order for things to work properly.  Typically this is done by means of a generator (a.k.a a "pre heat loop") such as the one in the photo below.
A Kovea Hydra stove.  Note the fuel line passing through the flame.
As liquid fuel flows through the fuel line, it is heated greatly and expands into a vapor.
By using the heat of the flame itself to vaporize the fuel, we don't have to worry so much about the temperature of our surroundings, and our canister doesn't turn into a mini freezer.

Preferential vaporization/preferential burning
Not only is there the issue of canister chilling with upright canister use, but there is the issue of preferential burning.  Let me explain:  Backpacking canister fuels are typically a blend.  There's some percentage each of propane, isobutane, and n-butane.  Take a look at the below table:

 Vaporization (Boiling) Point
n-butane    -0.5°C    31°F
isobutane    -12°C    11°F
propane      -42°C   -44°F

Each type of fuel has a temperature at which it will vaporize.  The lower the fuel's vaporization point, the easier it is to maintain good gas pressure in your canister in cold weather.  The various fuels are blended together with the intention of providing a mix that will a) not have such high pressure that it will burst the canister in hot weather while b) still providing decent canister pressure in cold weather.

Propane is going to vaporize all the way down to -42 C (-44 F).  Propane is your best cold weather fuel.  However, in normal right side up canister use, the propane vaporizes more readily and is drawn out of the blend at a faster rate.  This is referred to as "preferential vaporization" or "preferential separation."  Since you're pulling the propane out at a faster rate, you're burning it at a faster rate.  This is referred to as "preferential burning."  They're two sides of the same coin, and both are to be avoided.

For example, if one starts out with a good cold weather mix, say 20% propane and 80% isobutane, by the end of the life of the canister, the propane will be all but gone.  Your blend instead 20/80 will be more something like 1/99.  Whereas your blend started with a nice percentage of propane (which will vaporize all the way down to -42 C / -44 F), you will finish with almost all isobutane (which only vaporizes down to -12 C / +11 F).   You'll have lost that part of your fuel which was serving, in effect, as a propellent.  Recall also that the fuel has to be about 10 Celsius degrees (about 20 Fahrenheit degrees) above its vaporization point in order for there to be decent canister pressure with most stoves.  You cannot use a fuel just barely above its vaporization point and expect decent pressure.

In our example, above, at the start of the life of your canister, you might have had a blend giving you good canister pressure down to maybe -15 Celsius / 5 F or even -20 / -4 F, but by the end of the canister, the blend you have left is maybe only good down to 0 Celsius / 32 F.

Avoiding Preferential Burning
In order to retain an effective cold weather gas blend, we have to avoid the loss of our best cold weather fuel components.  If we pull vaporized fuel off the top of the canister, as in upright use, the propane is just naturally going to come out of the blend faster.

On the other hand, if we pull fuel off the bottom, as in inverted canister operation, it doesn't matter what vaporizes at what temperature.  You're not vaporizing it!  You're drawing off liquid.  The liquid drawn off will be the same blend as the blend in the canister as a whole.  Thus, when running with the canister upside down, your fuel blend does not change significantly.  You start and end with roughly the same percentage of propane, your best winter fuel.

No chill and No Change
So, when you turn your canister upside down, you're essentially eliminating the two big enemies of cold weather performance:
  • Internal canister chilling
  • Changing (for the worse) fuel blend.  


Practical Application
OK, so I've talked about the two technologically based approaches to mitigating the effects of cold weather:
  • A stove built around a regulator valve and 
  • A stove designed to handle inverted canister operation.  

Which is best for what?

Well, truth be told, either approach will work, so long as you can keep the canister "warm."  By warm here, I mean warm relative to the surroundings, not balmy tropical weather.  When it's -15 C (5 F) out, then 0 C (32 F) is "warm."  It's just that when it gets really cold, it's hard to keep the canister warm. When it gets really cold, you want to use the technological approach that gives you the biggest boost so that you don't have to struggle so much with keeping the canister warm.

Which approach is the more effective?  Inverted canister operation.  Why?  As I said above,
"no chill and no change."  No matter how well designed around a regulator valve a given upright canister stove is, there will still be internal canister chilling, and there will still be a change (for the worse) in fuel composition.  Inverted canister use eliminates these two killers of cold weather performance.

In practical terms, maybe an upright canister stove is best used in temperatures above something on the order of -15 C (5F)  –  and I'm assuming here that you're already using good gas and keeping the canister warm.  Could you go colder?  Sure, so long as you can keep the canister sufficiently "warm."  I just think it's going to get increasingly difficult to keep the canister warm as the temperature falls.  I've seen a pot of boiling water thrown into the air where all the water freezes before it hits the ground.  That's cold.  If you can keep your canister warm under those conditions, you're a better man or woman than I.

So for really cold conditions, a stove that can handle inverted canister operation is the better choice.  All you need is enough pressure in the canister to get the fuel to flow to and through the burner assembly.  The heat of the flame will take care of the vaporization.  You don't have to worry about the canister chilling from within, and you don't have have to worry about your propane preferentially burning off.  Again, though, your stove must be designed for this.  You can't just take any canister gas stove and run liquified petroleum gas to the burner.
A Jetboil Joule
And, there's no law against combining the two approaches.  In fact, there is a stove that does just that, the Jetboil Joule.  The Jetboil Joule is a snow melting monster.  It has a regulated valve and it is designed to run with the canister upside down.  Not only that, it has a heat exchanger pot.  The heat exchanger causes more of the heat of the burner to get transferred to the contents of the pot.

Why not just use White Gas or Kerosene?
Oh, for crying out loud.  I mean really, Jim.  Why all this messing around?  Why not just use white gasoline or kerosene?

Well, yes, and many people will do just that.  With a white gasoline or kerosene type stove, you don't have to worry much about the temperature of the fuel.  Pressure is not provided by the fuel itself but rather by an external pump.

However:
  • Priming a liquid fueled stove (gasoline or kerosene) takes skill, dexterity (it's cold, remember), extra fuel, and extra time.
  • In truly cold weather, one is often forced to cook in one's shelter.  Do you really want to prime a stove inside a tent or other shelter? 
  • Pumps often fail in cold weather.
  • Gas stoves are generally lighter and are more mechanically reliable than liquid fueled stoves.
In truly cold weather, my recommendation is that teams coordinate carrying both liquid fueled and canister gas stoves such that there are back ups in case one or the other proves unworkable.  Ideally, a backup pump (as well as a maintenance kit and spare parts) should be taken for each white gasoline/kerosene stove.

By the way, MSR has just come out with a new pump, specifically designed for cold weather, the MSR Arctic Pump.  It is not supposed to be used above 32 F / 0 C.  It's seals and pump cup are designed to remain flexible in extreme cold.
The new MSR Arctic Pump – designed for extreme cold weather use


Summary
  • Canister pressure drops in cold weather.
  • Canisters chill not only due to cold outside temperature but also chill from within during use.
  • In order to maintain sufficient canister pressure, one must learn the basics of cold weather gas stove operation.  See list of links, below.
  • Technology can help augment the basics of cold weather canister stove operation.
  • There are two technological approaches to augmenting the basics:   
    • Using a stove designed around a regulator valve or 
    • Using a stove designed for inverted canister operation. 
  • Regulator valve technology can be very helpful in cold weather, but regulator valves can only take one so far (and must always be used in conjunction with the basics of cold weather gas stove operation).
  • Perhaps a practical cut off point for upright canister stoves is something on the order of -15 C (5F) – if you're using the basics of cold weather gas stove operation augmented by technology.
  • A stove designed for inverted canister operation may be best for temperatures below those where an upright canister stove is typically practical.
  • The two technological approaches can be combined and used simultaneously as in the Jetboil Joule.
  • In extreme cold weather, teams should coordinate carrying a combination of canister gas and liquid fueled (white gasoline/kerosene) type stoves. 
Closing
This has been a long and complex post, a fact for which I apologize.  I hope that you have found this useful.  If not, then comment below and let's get it properly revised.

HJ

Related articles and posts:

Warming a canister, demonstration:
If a picture is worth a thousand words, what's a video worth?  Dunno, but here's a video showing an integrated upright canister stove in cold weather.  You will notice that it is struggling as the canister cools from within.  Part way through the video, I will place the canister in some lukewarm water, and... well, watch what happens.


Tuesday, March 12, 2013

The Soto Microregulator (OD-1R)

Soto Outdoor is a high end stove manufacturing concern based in Japan.

Previously, I've done the following reviews of Soto gear:
Today, I'd like to review an upright canister gas stove from Soto, the Microregulator (OD-1R) which is the world's lightest upright canister stove with auto ignition.  Note:  In Japan, for whatever reason, the stove is referred to as the SOD-300 instead of the OD-1R.
The Soto Microregulator on high.
I've characterized Soto as a high end stove manufacturer, and indeed they are.  Their manufacturing quality is very high, and their stoves show a level of attention to detail that very few other stove manufacturers can rival.  Dare I call a stove beautiful?  If any stove may bear that appelation, it is a Soto.  Soto stoves are a study in precision manufacturing.
The burner head of a Soto Microregulator.  Note the piezoelectric ignition at the very top of the burner head.
While I think quality of manufacturing sets Soto apart from the crowd, there's another thing that makes the Soto Microregulator stand out in particular:   The Microregulator is the world's lightest upright canister gas stove with auto ignition.  Soto's site advertises a weight of 73g.  On my gram scale at home, I register a mere 70g.  Either way, it's about 2.5 ounces and is very light weight.
The piezoelectric auto ignitor of a a Soto Microregulator
Not only did Soto come up with a lightweight auto ignition, they did a darned fine job of it.  Whereas most auto ignitions look like they just crudely bolted an ignition to the side of the stove as more of an afterthought, the Soto Microregulator's ignition was clearly part of the design from the beginning.  The wire for the piezoelectric ignition runs up through the center of the burner column and isn't bolted to the side.  This is no small trick, for running the ignition wire up the center of the stove means that the wire will go through the mixing chamber where the fuel and the air are combined in the proper ratios for efficient combustion.
If you look closely, you can see a copper wire through the opening of the mixing chamber.
How on earth the Soto engineers were able to run that wire through there without messing up the fuel-air mix, I'll never know, but it speaks well indeed of the engineering expertise at Soto.  The top of the ignitor exits in the center of the burner head and is relatively more well protected than side mounted piezoelectric ignitions.  Note:  No ignition system, no matter how well designed, is ever 100%; always bring a lighter or matches (or some other means of ignition) with you on every trip.
The strip of metal that can be seen in the center of the burner head is the upper end of the Microregulator's ignition.
The pot supports and valve adjustment lever fold up well, and the stove is quite compact.
The Microregulator folds up well.
The Microregulator has a nice wide burner head which helps prevent "hot spotting" in the center of your pan which in turn helps prevent burnt food.
The burner head of a Microregulator
The pot supports swing up...
The pot supports rotate
...and lock into place.
After rotating, the pot supports slide into and lock in place.
I've seen some criticism that the pot supports slip too easily out of place.  What I've found after using the stove for a while is that the supports tighten up a bit after they've been exposed to food and weather.  I think they're reasonably stable, and there is absolutely no chance they're going to move when the weight of a pot or pan is on them.  See the video review below for, among other things, a demonstration regarding the pot supports.
Note:  Soto has introduced (Summer, 2012) a new version of this stove, the OD-1RX that has different pot supports.  I have not yet seen the new stove but the new pot supports are said to be improved.

Speaking of pot supports, I think that pots up to about 1300ml work well with the stove although I'm sure some will feel more comfortable with even larger pots.
A 1300ml Evernew UL titanium pot on a Microregulator
I also found that my MSR Blacklite pan which has a 7 5/8" (19.5cm) diameter worked well with the Microregulator. The Microregulator's pot supports have serrations that grip a pot or pan's bottom well.
An MSR Blacklite Pan on a Microregulator
Now, I've said that the wide burner head of the Microregulator will help prevent hot spots.  So, how does it do in actual cooking?  It was a little bit stormy the day I took this series of photos, so please excuse my Z-Lite pad which I was using as a partial windscreen (do NOT use a full 360 degree windscreen with an upright canister stove!).
Getting started with an omelette using a Microregulator
And how did it turn out?  Quite well, I thank you.  A bit of normal browning on the bottom, but...
An omelette cooked on a Microregulator.  Nicely done.
...quite moist and delicious on the inside.
A very nice moist omelette, thanks to the Microregulator.

Myths concerning the Soto Microregulator
For whatever reason, there are two myths out there concerning the Soto Microregulator.

Myth #1 is that the Soto Microregulator will somehow draw more gas out a canister than other stoves. Uh, no.  Not only is there no basis in either physics or chemistry for such an assertion, my testing has verified what theory suggests:  A canister that is empty to another stove will be empty to the Microregulator as well.  In other words, a Microregulator cannot pull more gas out of a given canister than another stove.  I have no idea where such a myth might originate or what could prompt such odd speculation, but there is no basis in fact to that myth.  For those interested in my testing, please see Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part I

Myth #2 is that the Soto Microregulator will somehow operate better in cold weather compared to other upright canister stoves with a conventional needle valves.  Again, no.  A Soto Microregulator will not run any better in cold weather than any other upright canister stove.  The pressure in a canister is determined by a) the composition of the fuel, b) the temperature of the canister, and c) the ambient atmospheric pressure.  A regulator valve can hold back pressure, but it cannot produce pressure.  In order for a regulator to function it must have something to regulate.  When the pressure inside a canister falls off due to cold, a regulator valve has nothing to regulate and does no better than a needle valve.  This is a complex subject, but if you're interested in it, please see my testing in Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II

So, why a regulator valve?
OK, so a Microregulator cannot get more out of a canister than other stoves and a Microregulator can't run any better in cold weather than other stoves, so why a regulator valve?  Excellent question.  A regulator valve can do a couple of things for you:
1.  A regulator valve can control excessive pressure, as in hot weather.  For example, if you're doing the Pacific Crest Trail and you're crossing a desert section in the southern reaches of the trail, you could encounter some very hot weather.  In hot weather, a canister might actually have too much pressure and can "overpower" a stove.  A regulator can tamp down that pressure and keep the stove safe to operate.
2.  A regulator valve can keep a flame more constant if the canister pressure drops provided that there is additional pressure to be had within the canister.  In other words, a regulator valve can open up more on its own allowing more pressure to flow if there is additional pressure available in the canister.  A regulator valve can "smooth out" changes in pressure.  Thus, a regulator valve can give you a more constant flame.  You can think of a regulator valve as a sort of "cruise control" for your stove.    Again, though, there has to be additional pressure available inside the canister in order for the regulator valve to have something to work with.  But couldn't you just reach over and open up the valve a bit wider on a regular needle valved stove?  Yes, you could.  The Microregulator just does it for you automatically.  This automatic adjustment doesn't seem like a hugely valuable feature to me, but to some it may hold appeal.

Concluding remarks
The Soto Microregulator, OD-1R, is a well built, well designed stove, and it's the world's lightest stove with auto-ignition.  The Microregulator is certainly an excellent choice for someone desiring to do simple backpacking style cooking, but because of it's fairly wide burner head, the Microregulator can take on more complex cooking tasks as well.

There is however a lot of confusion about just what the regulator valve is supposed to do, confusion that in my opinion Soto hasn't done enough to dispel.  I think that everyone should just forget that there's a regulator valve on this stove and focus on the fact that this is an excellent stove and that this is the world's lightest stove with auto ignition.  In practical terms for someone out on the trail, the regulator valve is very much a non-event. 

Summary
The Soto Microregulator (OD-1R)
What's good about it?
  • World's lightest stove with auto-ignition.
  • Excellent design and manufacturing quality.
  • Wide burner head which makes this a good stove for real cooking for backpackers.
  • Serrated pot supports make your pot or pan less likely to slip off.
What's bad about it?
  • There is a lot of confusion about the regulator valve.
  • Perhaps the pot supports could lock into place a bit more solidly (but that's a pretty minor complaint on an otherwise excellent stove).
The Microregulator stove from Soto:  Highly recommended.

I thank you for joining me on another Adventure in Stoving,

HJ
The beautiful blue flame of a Soto Microregulator.  Truly a nice stove.

Monday, January 23, 2017

The G-Works Adapter – 100% Propane for Backpacking

Backpacking gas canisters are for backpacking and car camping canisters are for car camping, right?  Well, yes, generally that's true – but not if you have a G-Works adapter.
A G-Works propane adapter connects a backpacking stove to a car camping type 100% propane canister.
A G-Works adapter screws on to the top of an everyday ordinary Coleman type 100% propane canister, the kind that are used for car camping, picnics, BBQ's, etc.  The other side of the adapter is a 7/16" UNEF threaded connector – just like the one on the top of a backpacking type gas canister.  You screw in 100% propane on one side of the adapter and your backpacking stove on the other, and, voila! – you're cooking on 100% propane.

Now, the big 16.4 oz/465 g 100% propane canisters are pretty heavy and bulky.  Why use them?  Well, see my list of reasons, below.

However, note, that there are a lot of techniques and technologies that can help you use regular backpacking canisters in cold weather; see Gas Stoves in Cold Weather – Regulator Valves and Inverted Canisters.  You can also use a liquid fueled stove in cold weather.  This adapter is just another option.  Each person should evaluate his or her own circumstances and preferences and choose accordingly from among the options.

Regarding the weight of the 100% propane canisters:   I have a couple of Coleman brand 465 g canisters of 100% propane in front of me.  They weigh about 850 g each.  The weights vary, but the lowest I've seen for a full 100% propane canister is about 840 g.  By contrast, a 450 g Jetboil brand backpacking type canister weighs 660 g.  That's a minimum difference of about 80 g (roughly 3 oz) for comparably sized canisters.  Some Coleman 100% propane canisters weigh 870 g.  That's about about 110g (about 1/4 pound) more than a comparable backpacking canister.

Is the weight worth it?  Well, that's something you're going to have to decide for yourself.  Read the rest of the post and see if benefits are sufficient to justify the weight of the heavier canister.
A car camping type canister of 100% propane
16.4 oz/465 g net fuel weight
Cautions
High pressure!
Now, remember, the vapor pressure of propane is WAY HIGHER than a normal backpacking canister. Start on low, and open up gradually the valve on your stove.  This is a big boy/big girl, grown ups only, type adapter.  There's no built in safety.  YOU are the safety.  In order to operate this safely, you have to control the gas flow with the valve on your stove.  Turn it up too high, and you might blow out the flame.  If the flame goes out, you've now got a highly flammable, potentially explosive gas rushing toward the red hot metal of your stove. I'm thinking maybe that's not such a good idea – if you get my drift.  So, BE CAREFUL.

Do not tip over!
Also, DO NOT tip the canister over.  The canister needs to be upright.  If you lay the canister on it's side, you're going to be feeding liquid fuel into the burner instead of gaseous fuel.  Don't lay the canister on its side UNLESS you've a) got a remote canister type stove with a generator (pre heat device) of some type and b) your stove is good and hot.  If you don't know what a generator or pre heat device is, don't lay the stove on its side!  You could get a huge yellow fireball.  This is highly dangerous.  Don't do it.

Not recommended for regulator valved stoves above 40 Fahrenheit/5 Celsius.
If your stove is equipped with a regulator valve, I would not use this adapter in cool, warm, or hot weather.  Why?  Well the regulator in your valve is not built to handle the high pressure of propane.  Can your stove's regulator handle the high pressure of propane?  I have no way of knowing – so don't do it.  If you use 100% propane on a regulator valved stove, you could damage the regulator.  If the regulator fails, how are you going to control the flow of gas?  I'm not sure exactly what would happen if your regulator failed while your stove was lit, and I don't want to find out.

Of course, in colder temperatures, high canister pressure is hardly a problem.  At temperatures around 40 Fahrenheit/5 Celsius, 100% propane has roughly the same vapor pressure as an 80/20 isobutane/propane mix at 110 F/43 C.  Your stove should be able to handle such pressures. You should be pretty safe so long as you start with the stove on low and turn it up slowly.  Particularly below freezing, a regulator valve equipped backpacking stove should be fine.  However, note the effects of altitude.  The pressure inside the canister relative to the outside air will become greater at higher elevations.  For every 1000 feet in elevation gained, you should deduct 2 Fahrenheit degrees from my 40 Fahrenheit estimated safe temperature limit.  That would be about 1 Celsius degree for every 300 m.  For example, at 10,000, instead of a 40 Fahrenheit safe limit, you would want to not operate a regulator valve stove above 20 Fahrenheit.  

The vast majority of stoves do not have a regulator valve, but you should check with your manufacturer as to whether or not your particular stove has a regulator valve.

Here are some stoves with regulator valves.  Do not use this adapter with these stoves in cool (above 40 F/5 C), warm, or hot weather.  Use only in cold weather (below 40 F/5 C).
  • Jetboil Joule
  • Jetboil MightyMo
  • Jetboil MicroMo
  • Jetboil MiniMo
  • Jetboil Sol
  • MSR Reactor
  • MSR Windburner
  • Soto Micro Regulator
  • Soto WindMaster
That's all the regulator valved backpacking type stoves I can think of off the top of my head.  Remember to check your stove to see if it has a regulator valve before using this adapter.  Usually it will say on the manufacturer's website if a particular stove has a regulator valve.

Reasons to use this Adapter
1.  Cold weather.
Why 100% propane?  Well, for starters, cold weather.  Butane, which is often the majority component in backpacking gas canisters, vaporizes at 31F/-0.5C.  That's really not all that cold.  Not only that, but you have to be about 20 Fahrenheit degrees (10 Celsius degrees) above the vaporization point before you have consistently good pressure.

Propane on the other hand, vaporizes all the way down to -44 Fahrenheit/-42 Celsius.  That's cold!

Vaporization (Boiling) Point
 n-butane    -0.5°C    31°F
 isobutane    -12°C    11°F
 propane      -42°C   -44°F

And yes, I know they usually blend in some isobutane and propane into the typical backpacking gas canister, but still, nothing beats 100% propane for cold weather.

NOTE:  If you're going out in really cold weather, TEST YOUR SET UP FIRST.  Propane is typically not pure (well, maybe if you work in a laboratory or something).  The temperatures listed above are based on pure propane which you can't buy at least in the US, so you're not going to get quite the good cold weather performance that you might expect.  The propane typically sold in the US conforms to the HD5 standard which is as follows:

  • Minimum 90% propane (no less than 90%)
  • Maximum 5% propylene (no more than 5%)
  • The remainder is comprised of "other" petroleum based gasses
The "other" might include methane, ethane, isobutane, butane, etc., some of which will give you less performance in cold weather, others of which will give you better performance.  So, the number -44F/-42C is something of an approximation, depending on exactly what you've got in the canister.  Still, 90% minimum propane is going to be significantly better than any backpacking canister's mixture which is typically no more than 30% propane.  And remember that you need to be about 20 Fahrenheit degrees (10 Celsius degrees) above the vaporization point before you have decent pressure.  Of course, one can always warm the canister by various means, and so long as isn't warmed to the point of being too hot to touch, it should be safe while giving one good pressure.


2.  Instantly "winterize" your existing stove. 
With this adapter, you don't have to shell out the cash for a dedicated winter stove.  Here's what I mean:  Say you're basically a summer camper.  Most people are.  But every couple of years you get a wild idea and go out when it's cold.  A stove is pretty close to a necessity on a winter trip.  But do you really want to spend the money on an expensive stove that you're only going to use every couple of years?  No, of course not.  No problem.  Just get this little adapter, and voila! you instantly have a winter capable stove.

3.  Outlying areas (no backpacking canisters available).
In a lot of outlying areas, specialty items like backpacking canisters may simply not be available.  I know guys who have hiked in rural New Mexico where they just couldn't find backpacking canisters, but, walk into a hardware store or gas station, and, there they are:  100% propane car camping type canisters.  Having this little adapter might mean the difference being able to do a given trip – and having to just go home.  This is particularly true if you have to fly in for a given trip and cannot take canisters from home.

4.  Natural Disasters.
You could look at this adapter as $20 worth of cheap insurance.  This adapter opens up a whole new fuel supply for your backpacking stove.  The ability to boil water for drinking can be critical in times of natural disaster.

5.  Cheap fuel.
Another reason for buying 100% propane is that it's typically cheaper.  I've seen propane for as cheap as $2.50 (USD) per canister.  About the cheapest you'll find for the equivalent amount of backpacking gas is $7 or $8.  That's a HUGE price difference.  Why?  Well, think about it.  For every backpacker, there are hundreds of car campers, hunters, picnickers, and back yard barbecuers.  The economies of scale just aren't there for backpacking canisters.

6.  Trailhead camping – or just using your backpacking stove for everything.
You might also want to bring 100% propane to cook your supper and/or breakfast if you spend the night before a backpacking trip at the trailhead.  That way, you start with a 100% full backpacking canister for your hike.  Or heck, maybe you just want to own one stove, and your backpacking stove is it.  You use backpacking canisters when backpacking, but when car camping, picnicking, etc. you just use cheap propane, and who cares about the weight when you're using your car, right?

Other Compatible Canisters
Of course there's no reason that you have to restrict yourself to the big, fat 16.4 oz/465 g propane canister.  The 14.1 oz/400 g canisters will work just as well and may be more packable.  For a remote canister stove that can handle liquid feed gas (inverted canister type operation), this might be a nice option.  Heat the stove up with the canister upright, then when the stove is hot, lay the canister on its side for liquid feed.
A 14.1 oz (400 g) propane canister

Really, any fuel canister with compatible threads could be used – but is it a good idea?  For example, the little 5.45 oz/155 g Bernzomatic QuickFire canisters appear to be compatible.  This has NOT been tested with this adapter or with a backpacking type stove is NOT recommended.  Note that the gas contained is NOT pure propane.  Bernzomatic QuickFire canisters contain MAPP gas which does have propane in it but also has a high percentage of propylene.  Propylene burns at a much hotter temperature than straight propane.  What will this high heat do to your stove?  I don't know, but I do know your stove is not built to handle that kind of heat.  I wouldn't do it, but it's up to you.  If you decide to go against my advice, exercise extreme caution with any non-propane canisters.
A Bernzomatic QuickFire 5.45 oz/155 g canister of MAPP (high propylene content) gas.
This has NOT been tested and is NOT recommended with this adapter.
Weight
Some of you may remember my post a few years ago on the Kovea propane adapter.  The Kovea propane adapter is a great little adapter, but it weighs 105g – that's nearly a quarter of a pound!  By contrast, the G-Works adapter weighs 33 g, about 1.2 oz – only about one-third the weight of the Kovea adapter.  In other words, the Kovea adapter weighs roughly triple what the G-Works adapter weighs.

Using the Adapter
OK, so how well does the darned thing work?  Pretty darned well, actually.  Here's a video demonstrating its use:
  
Compatible Stoves
There is a rim around the threads where your backpacking canister attaches.  I used a Kovea Spider stove with my G-Works adapter, and it worked great, but some stoves with a really wide base might not work.  The rim around the threads is about 25 mm outside diameter and about 21 mm inside diameter.  Again, however, I would not recommend that this adapter be used with any regulator valved stove.

The G-Works adapter is made in Korea.  Generally stoves made in Korea work well with the adapter if they fit within the rim.  I've had reports of some stoves from China where the pin on the stove was too short to open the valve on the adapter.  A lot of stoves are made in Korea including some MSR, Snow Peak, and of course Kovea stoves.

Price and Availability
They're available on e-Bay for about $20 although there may be better deals out there.  Amazon is a lot more expensive.

OK, that's it.  That's my presentation on the G-Works adapter, a very nice piece of gear.  Thanks for joining me,

HJ

Sunday, July 31, 2011

Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part I

UPDATE 10 FEB 2013:  Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II is now available.


INTRODUCTION
Soto Outdoors recently introduced their OD-1R Micro-Regulator stove.  Soto created a good deal of buzz when they posted the following video which makes it look as though a regulator valved stove has quite an advantage over a conventional needle valved stove.  The relevant segment starts at 1:03.


What advantages, if any, do regulator valved stoves offer?

This post is Part I of Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, an investigation into the advantages, if any, of stoves that have a regulator valve.

Part II can be seen here:  Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II

Several people have mentioned in passing that their canisters were more fully drained after using a regulator valved stove than when using a conventional needle valved stove.  In addition, in a discussion with an individual who has worked a good deal with LPG commercially, said individual felt that a regulator valve would function at lower gas pressures (such as those in a seemingly exhausted canister) than a needle valve.  If in fact a regulator valved stove were to make more full use of the gas carried when backpacking, this more full use would be of value to backpackers.  I set out to conduct a simple experiment to see if indeed a regulator valved stove might make more full use of the gas in a canister.  My experiment would exhaust a canister using a needle valved stove and then replace the needle valved stove with a regulator valved stove to see if the regulator valved stove could operate on a canister that, to a needle valved stove, was exhausted.


ENVIRONMENT
Location:  Stove Test Area 1 (UTM: 11S 383294 3792457), Haines Canyon, City of Los Angeles, California, USA
Date/Time:  30 JUL 2011, 1830 hours
Elevation:  2600'/792m MSL

Conditions:
27.20 InHg/921 mBar
80F/27C
Little to no wind (no audible susurrus, no visible leaf motion)


EQUIPMENT
Regulator Valved Test Stove:
-Soto OD-1R Micro Regulator
P1070137.JPG


Conventional needle valved stoves for comparison:
-MSR Superfly
P1070136.JPG

-Optimus Crux
P1070134.JPG

-Snow Peak GST-100
P1070135.JPG
All stoves together:
P1070133.JPG


Fuel:
-Canister 1.  Snow Peak 110g, weighing 88g
-Canister 2.  Snow Peak 110g, weighing 93g
-Canister 3.  Snow Peak 110g, weighing 166g

Ignition source:  Soto Pocket Torch. 
P1070138.JPG


TEST RESULTS
Test 1, canister 1 (88g)
A.  Superfly, valve fully open, flame on, run to exhaustion.  Flame out.  Cannot restart.  No sound of gas escaping.
B.  OD-1R, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.
C.  GST-100, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.
D.  Crux, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.

Test 2, canister 2 (93g)
A.  Crux, valve fully open, flame on, run to exhaustion.  Flame out.  Cannot restart.  No sound of gas escaping.
B.  OD-1R, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.
C.  GST-100, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.
D.  Superfly, valve fully open, cannot start stove.  No sound of gas escaping.

Equipment Checking, canister 3 (166g).  Each stove tested for normal operation.
A.  Superfly.  NORMAL
P1070139.JPG

B.  Crux.  NORMAL
P1070141.JPG

C.  GST-100.  NORMAL
P1070142.JPG

D.  OD-1R.  NORMAL.
P1070140.JPG



DISCUSSION
Two very nearly empty canisters of gas were used to conduct the experiment.  A third canister containing far more gas was used to verify that each stove used in the experiment was working properly.  All stoves were in fact working normally.  To avoid the chance that the results might be skewed by some unknown, unusual characteristic in one of the needle valved comparison stoves, multiple comparison stoves were used.  A butane torch was used as the ignition source for all stoves whether or not a given stove had a piezoelectric ignition so that ignition failures could not skew the results.  At random, a needle valve stove was chosen and used to exhaust the canister.  When flame out occured, a brief re-ignition was quickly attempted in order to confirm exhaustion of the canister.  If the re-ignition failed, the needle valve stove was swapped out for the regulator valved stove, and an attempt to run the regulator valved stove was made.
I ran two tests.  See TEST RESULTS section above for details.  In both cases, the Soto OD-1R could do no more than a conventional needle valved stove.  An exhausted canister to a needle valved stove was an exhausted canister to a regulator valved stove.  For additional confirmation, after the test with the Soto OD-1R, the remaining needle valve stoves were tried.  No stove was able to operate after intitial exhaustion.  A exhausted canister was an exhausted canister, irrespective of the stove used.  After the test, canister 1 weighed 86g, and canister 2 weighed 86g.

CONCLUSION
A Soto OD-1R regulator valved stove is not able to burn off more gas from a canister than a conventional needle valved stove.  This is not to say that a regulator valve might not have some value in keeping a flame constant as canister pressure drops, but when the canister is finally exhausted, a Soto OD-1R regulator valved stove offers no advantage over a conventional needle valved stove.

Sunday, February 10, 2013

Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II

In my first post on the subject, I linked to a video produced by Soto Outdoors showing their Microregulator Stove (OD-1R) in a "burn off" against a non-regulator stove.  The video seems to imply that there is some advantage to having a regulator valved stove in cold weather over a conventional needle valved stove.

There's just one problem here:  It doesn't make sense from the standpoint of physics and chemistry.  I mean, the relative pressure in a canister is a function of the fuel inside, the pressure outside, and the temperature.  Compressed gases, such as those in the canister of a backpacking stove, follow certain rules of physics and chemistry.  Changing the valve type won't cause that pressure to change.  I've talked to engineers, chemists, and physicists.  No one seems to think that a regulator valve will be of any benefit in cold conditions. 

So, I thought I'd try a cold test of my own to see what I might find out.  I define cold here, in the context of an upright canister stove, as a fuel temperature (not necessarily air temperature) less than ten Fahrenheit degrees (about 5 Celsius degrees) above the boiling point of the fuel.

Now, in Soto's test, we don't really know how cold the water is, we don't know what's in those fuel canisters, etc.  In other words, we really don't know much about the test conditions.  So, before I go on, let me lay out my test conditions.  Hopefully this section isn't too boring.  :)

Testing Conditions
  • Elevation:  Approximately 6,000'/1825m.
  • Temperature:  31F/-0.5C as measured on a digital probe type cook's thermometer.  No calibration was employed on the thermometer.
  • Conditions:  Light wind.  No precipitation.
  • Fuel used:  100% n-butane.  No isobutane or propane was used.
  • Air pressure:  Unmeasured.
  • Canister temperature at initiation of test:  Unmeasured but assumed to be ambient.  The canisters were left out for a considerable time while I did various things at the location I stopped at, including setting up the test. 
Important Chemistry and Stove Facts
  • Boiling point of n-butane at sea level:  31F/-0.5C
  • Boiling point of n-butane at 6,000'/1800m:  About 19F/-7C
  • Normally, the temperature of a compressed gas fuel needs to be about 10F (or 5C) degrees above the boiling point of that fuel in order for a canister stove to have decent operating pressure.
  • Releasing gas out of the canister causes the canister's internal temperature to drop.  In other words, an upright canister stove's fuel gets colder as the stove operates.
Conduct of Test

I started both stoves, the Monatauk Gnat first, then the Soto Microregulator.  Once both stoves were lit, I opened both valves to their maximum open position and let them burn.  Both stoves were on top of a Ridgerest closed cell foam pad. 

I let the video run for a combined total of about 20 minutes.  The "short" video clip below is from the last three or so minutes of that approximately 20 minute period.  The "long" video posted in the appendix was started before the burn began and extends for about 17 minutes.



Discussion
I started the test at a temperature of 31F/-0.5C, about 12 degrees Fahrenheit above the boiling point of the fuel.  The flame's sizes show that there was reasonably good pressure at the start of the test.

The Microregulator had a much larger initial flame than the Gnat.  Obviously, it would have been a better test to have two nearly identical stoves, one with a conventional needle valve and the other with a regulator valve, but I had no way to get two such stoves.  However, even without closely matched stoves, one can assess whether or not a stove's flame has been significantly impacted by the temperature. 

Errata:  In the video you may hear me say something to the effect that the ambient temperature is equal to the boiling point of the fuel.  While that would have been true at sea level, the video was shot at ~6000'/1825m elevation, therefore the ambient temperature was actually about twelve degrees above the boiling point of the fuel.

In the video, I said something about the canisters being perhaps above the ambient temperature because they had been in my pack.  On further reflection, I realized that I had taken the canisters out well before the test was started.  The canisters were resting on a snow free metal surface that had been in the open all day.  The canisters were undoubtedly at ambient temperature at the start of the test.

Observation
At the end of the test period, both stoves had similarly sized, very small flames.  The Soto Microregulator offered no discernible advantage in cold conditions, as I define cold (see above definition).

Concluding Remarks
No criticism of the Soto Microregulator stove is intended here.  It is one of the nicest built upright canister stoves that I have.  It is craftsmanship at its finest.  Again, my only point here is that I could not establish that there was any advantage to a regulator valved stove in cold conditions as I define cold, above.

I'm not sure what Soto was trying to show in their video.  Soto is based in Japan.  There may be some language barrier here.  People here in the US have taken Soto's video to mean that the Soto Microregulator has an advantage in cold weather.  I could discern no such advantage in cold conditions (as I define cold) nor is there anything in the chemistry or physics of either the stove or the fuel that would suggest such an advantage.

I would be very open to hearing from Soto a response to this blog post.  In particular, I would love for them to describe in detail a set of conditions under which a regulator valve stove might have an advantage over a needle valved stove, an advantage that I might be able to corroborate through testing.

I thank you for joining me on another Adventure in Stoving,

HJ


Appendix

In Soto's test, they let the stoves burn for about five minutes.  In the "long" video, below, you might want to watch the first six minutes.  I start the stoves about a minute into the video, therefore six minutes into the video is about five minutes of burn time.  I think you'll see that at five minutes into the burn, both stoves have significantly reduced flame sizes as compared to their respective flame sizes at the start of the test. 


Wednesday, November 16, 2016

Soto Amicus – First Look

I just took possession of a new Soto Amicus, which is an upright canister stove, i.e. a stove that sits on top of a canister of gas.  This is Soto's third upright canister stove introduced to the US market, and I'm thinking that this may be their strongest entry yet.  We'll see.  I have just started to evaluate the stove.

UPDATE 18 December 2017:  My finalized Review of the Soto Amicus is now available.

So, first impression:  It's small.  Nice.

 I haven't measured it against my Soto Microregulator or my Soto Windmaster, but even without measuring, I'm pretty sure it's smaller than either, and it's certainly smaller than the Windmaster which is considerably taller.

 It comes with a little stuff sack and of course a set of instructions.

 It's roughly as wide as my hand.

 I measure the stove at about 3.5 inches tall (roughly 9 cm) from the base to the tip of the pot supports.
 Now, the thing that Soto has caught a lot of flak for is their pot supports.  Soto makes good stoves, perhaps the best engineering and the best manufacturing quality currently available (at least in the US market with which I am familiar), but people have not liked the ergonomics of Soto's pot supports.

On Soto's first canister stove in the US market, the Microregulator, the pot supports were a little floppy.  You'd rotate them into place, but if you moved the stove or bumped it with a pot, the pot supports would flop back down.  It wasn't a complete design disaster, but it was kind of a hassle, and people complained.

On their second entry, the Windmaster, they had two interchangeable pot supports, a small one that came with the stove, and a large one for bigger pots that was purchased separately.  When in place, they were solid, but you took the supports off to pack up the stove.  The smaller of the two supports was a dull grayish color, and was easily lost.  It never bothered me.  I always used an ultralight mini carabiner and clipped the pot support to the valve handle the minute I took the supports off the stove.  But apparently a lot of people lost the little clip on pot support, which basically rendered the stove unusable – there was nothing to hold up the pot.

So, now Soto's third entry, the Amicus.  I think they've got it right this time.  The pot supports rotate into place but there's a little hook on the outer rim of the burner.
 On the pot support there is a little hole.
One rotates the spring loaded pot support into place, and after the pot support passes the little hook, the spring pulls the support to the right, seating it on the support.  It's actually a very smart piece of engineering.  Once in place, the pot supports do *not* come undone.  And though they're fairly thin, they have some sophisticated reinforcing designed into their shape.  Just yanking them by hand, they feel really solid.  These supports are way more solid that the pot supports on the MSR Pocket Rocket, and the Pocket Rocket has done very well for legions of hikers over time.
I said it at the beginning of this post, but it bears repeating:  No one, and I mean no one, is doing the kind of sophisticated engineering that Soto is doing, and no one is matching Soto's manufacturing precision.  That's not to say that other stoves aren't doing some pretty advanced things, but no one matches Soto's amazing attention to detail in both design and manufacture.  Soto is making the highest quality stoves in the US market, hands down.

There are four serrated pot supports which when emplaced support a pot well.

Remarks
Soto's first entry, the Microregulator, did fairly well, but the MSRP was $60, placing it at the upper range of upright canister stoves.

Soto's second entry, the Windmaster, was lighter and with it's two pot  support options, very flexible, but it's MSRP was $70.  When one can get a good solid stove like a Snow Peak GigaPower (a classic upright canister stove design) for $40 as well as other similar stoves for about the same price, is the Windmaster really that much better that one would be willing to pay an additional $30 for it?  Really?  Your stove is worth 175% of a Snow Peak GigaPower or an MSR PocketRocket?   I don't think it sold well enough.

Soto's third entry, the Amicus, has an MSRP of $40 for the version without the piezoelectric ignition and $45 for the version with the "Stealth" ignition.  That's right in the range of the most common upright canister stoves.

By the way, the piezoelectric ignition of Soto's upright canister stoves is the best of any stove available in the US Market.  It's light, it doesn't jut out and catch on things (the wire runs up through the burner column), and it's freaking reliable.

Gone how ever is the regulator valve.  Apparently to get the price down the more complicated valve had to go.  Now, is this a big loss?  Not really.  The regulator valve is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but it was so overhyped.  People thought that some how the regulator valve would allow one to operate the stove at far lower temperatures than other upright canister stoves.  Um, no, not really.  While nice, the relative pressure in the canister is a function of the percentages of the various component gases in the fuel mix (propane, isobutane, and "plain" butane), the elevation above sea level, and the temperature.  A valve holds back the pressure and can only adjust for pressure drops if and only if there is additional pressure available in the canister.  I guess what I'm saying here is that  it's not a big sacrifice to give up the regulator valve.  Most people would not be able to tell the difference between a stove with a regulator valve vs. one with a conventional needle valve.  Incidentally, almost all of the popular upright canister stoves have a conventional needle valve, and they've done just fine for years.  So, like I say, no big sacrifice here.

Will it sell?  We shall see.  How good is it?  Well, check back in a few weeks; I hope to have my evaluation done by mid-December.

HJ